It’s hard to believe Bernie Sanders. Not because the longtime Vermont senator bears the hallmarks of a liar. Yes, he’s a career politician, but the 84-year-old progressive torchbearer counts more viral memes than scandals to his name.

Rather, it’s hard to believe Bernie Sanders because, for decades, he’s told Americans that this country can radically change, while championing ideas too far afield from the status quo to really have a chance. He wants to bring billionaires to heel, for one. And implement universal, government-run health care.

College tuition? If Sanders had his way, it wouldn’t even exist. Things can change.

I believe it, and WIRED champions it. But change that much? In this country?

Really, Bernie? Sanders, though, is now hard at work adding one more big, improbable change to the pile: Since 2023, he’s been advocating for firm and decisive regulation of the AI industry. In March of this year, Sanders and his frequent collaborator, Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, proposed legislation that would halt data center construction until a series of safeguards are implemented.

In June, Sanders announced the American AI Sovereign Wealth Fund Act, which would essentially tax AI’s richest companies and result in direct payments to American citizens. I wanted to talk to Sanders about those bills, and his perspective on AI more broadly. On a deeper level, though, I was curious about how Sanders sees the barriers to regulation—from tech oligarchs and deep-pocketed super PACs, to a federal administration happier to enrich itself via technology than actually govern it—and whether he thinks those seemingly intractable obstacles can be overcome.

After a few months of haranguing, Sanders agreed to sit down, which is how I found myself in his modest DC campaign office watching the senator—thoughtful, genuine, vociferous as ever—grapple in real time with what he describes as “the most consequential, transformational technology in the history of humanity.” Sanders and I spoke on Tuesday, June 23, as the New York Democratic primary was underway. I woke up the next day, our conversation echoing in my head, to find that a coalition of democratic socialists had swept their respective elections and sent party stalwarts into an existential tailspin. A few hours later, New Jersey representative Frank Pallone, the top Democrat on the House Energy and Commerce Committee, became the most mainstream member of the party to publicly support an AI data center moratorium.

The uber-wealthy elites aren’t going away anytime soon. Neither is the president or his band of barely competent cronies. In this country, the tangled roots of power—become a trillionaire, buy an election, build that damn data center—run deep.

But the anger of an American majority, across party lines, might soon run deeper. They’re fighting data centers at town halls across the country. Turning out by the millions at nationwide protests.

And in New York and across the country, they’re spurning establishment candidates at the polls. Something, it seems, is breaking. Something has to break.

Believe Bernie Sanders? I just might. This interview has been edited for length and clarity.